104 Caroline Street, Kingsgrove NSW 2208

I would like to know how many cars the basement car park will hold. Will it be enough for the staff and the families of 133 children? The centre will be opposite two large Catholic schools, close to Kingsgrove station and next door to villas. Parking is impossible as it is during the day on Caroline street for the local residents. As it is our driveways are often blocked by parked or waiting cars. With such a large child care service I expect the parking will get much worse.

According to the plans there is enough parking for approx 10 staff. I expect a 133 place long day centre will have a much larger number of staff than the spaces being provided. I am assuming the remainder of the staff will be expected to park on the street where teachers from both the primary and high school, train commuters, year 12 students and any lucky local residents who find a parking space also park. I can not determine if there is a loading zone for deliveries so I expect that they will just have to double park where the other couriers and delivery trucks already stop frequently.
The traffic report mentions that there is unrestricted parking in some sections of Caroline st. A considerably large portion of the street is restricted because there is a bus zone located across the road from the proposed child care center and a drop off zone a few metres further up. Parking on Caroline st is limited to one side of the street and a small portion of the other side. The diagonal parking on Shaw street is at full capacity on weekdays and is used mainly for train commuters and local shoppers. There is no parking on Kingsgrove road during peak hours and Caroline St wears the brunt of that too.
The traffic report also suggests that there is unrestricted parking on Edward st, however, that is quite a considerable walk for parents with small children assuming that they can find a space to park on school days.
The High school and the Primary have grown considerably in recent years. There is no parking on either school site and no back entrances with car access. Caroline Street absorbs the bulk of the traffic from two schools already.

Caroline street is meant to be a quiet, residential street. St Ursula’s takes up the one end and Kingsgrove primary the other. I myself as a pedestrian have actually been hit by a car on this street during school zone hours. We already have more than plenty of daycare Centers in the area, do we really need more traffic on an already busy an der narrow street?

RE: DA-2018/138 - 104 Caroline St, Kingsgrove.

I wish to object to this development on the following grounds:

1. The current high traffic on this section of Caroline Street, from the existing two schools, poses a risk to local students, small children, drivers and pedestrians. The proposed child care centre will be opposite two large Catholic schools, around the corner from a large church and units, not far from a busy station and next door to villas - all without adequate parking facilities. Both schools have grown considerably in recent years and so has the demand for parking. Both the primary and high schools have no onsite parking for most of its teachers, visitors or year 12 students who drive to school. To make matters worse, the Shaw street diagonal parking area, used by train commuters, members of the local church, and local shoppers, also overflows onto Caroline Street. There is very limited access at the back of the schools so the bulk of school traffic must use Caroline Street. There is a bus/loading zone located across the road from the proposed child care centre and a school drop off zone down the street which not only further restricts parking but also contributes to the congestion in the street during school hours. Caroline street parking is mostly limited to one side of the street and a small portion of the other side which is inadequate for the number of people who need to use it. This impacts the surrounding streets. Traffic flow is most hazardous between 8.30-9am and 2.45-3.20pm. Many families attending the primary school and high school often resort to double parking to drop off and pick up students and frequently park in or across driveways, blocking and disrupting traffic flow. This poses a risk to the children crossing the roads and also walking along the footpaths. Both schools regularly hold after school events which often increases the hours that Caroline Street is heavily used.

2. The proposed child care centre will increase demands for parking and further impact traffic flow. Caroline Street is already at full capacity. The proposed child care centre offers between 9-11 parking spaces for staff. Staffing ratios for a child care centre for this size, considering that there will be 133 children from 0-5 years suggest there will be a minimum of 16 child care workers working directly with the children. Taking into account that the centre will be open from 7am to 6pm there will be additional child care staff coming and going throughout the day to relieve staff to cover the hours. This means that the later shifts will be arriving between 8.30am to 10pm and the early shift will be leaving at around 3pm. Both times are during the worst of the Caroline street traffic congestion. As well as the child care workers there will be the traffic from additional administration staff and cooks (assuming that the kitchen will be used for preparing meals), and less regularly maintenance workers, deliveries and visitors who will need access to the centre and parking. Like most educational institutions, there will be regular family events when all families and staff will be present, requiring far more parking spaces than the basement carpark and Caroline Street can manage. Parking is already impossible as it is during the day on Caroline Street, with teachers from both the primary and high school, train commuters, year 12 students, church goers and any very lucky local residents who can secure a parking space overnight, without the extra burden of a child care centre of this size.

3. There are already 2 child care facilities and 2 out of hours care facilities within approx. 500 metres of the proposed development. There are another four child care centres and a family day care service also located in Kingsgrove. At the time of writing this objection there were vacancies advertised online for two of the child care centres.

4. As there is no parking, parents of students frequently double-park resulting in poor visibility and dangerous conditions for other drivers, pedestrians and school children. The proposed child care service would attract additional traffic, extra demands for parking, and contribute to the slow traffic flow as staff and families hold up traffic to access the basement driveway, particularly during school peak times. Drivers already take unnecessary risks to drop off and pick up their children without the added complications of a busy child care centre across the road. The primary school, which has no onsite parking, also provides out of hours care to primary school aged students, which extends the hours of which Caroline Street is busy.

5. The proposed child care centre will likely further increase the congestion at the Shaw Street and Kingsgrove Road intersection during peak traffic times. Since the new development at Kingsgrove Station, all traffic coming from the new shops and residences on Mashman Avenue, must exit onto Kingsgrove Road opposite Shaw St. This also happens to be the only safe place with traffic lights for local residents and school traffic to turn right onto Kingsgrove road. As the traffic lights do not give right of way to Shaw Street traffic turning right, this can often be a long slow process for drivers waiting for traffic to come out of Mashman Avenue onto Shaw Street, waiting for pedestrians to cross the road, and waiting for M5 traffic which queues as far back as the intersection to clear. Frustrated drivers get desperate during busy traffic times and turn right stopping on the pedestrian crossing where students exit the train station. It is not uncommon for cars coming from Shaw Street to also queue across both lanes of traffic causing disruptions to the flow of traffic on Kingsgrove Road. Unfortunately, Kingsgrove Road traffic is already suffering delays and congestion due to right turning traffic going into the Mashman Avenue shopping complex. Time restrictions have only diverted traffic into Morgan Street which then suffers the constant disruptions of traffic making U turns because there is no other way to get to the local supermarket. A child care centre that brings over 150 cars into and out of the area twice per day will only make the traffic situation worse than what it already is.

6. At present there doesn’t appear to be any way for council to expand parking facilities to accommodate the ever increasing demand for parking at the railway and on the streets, which surround the main shopping area for Kingsgrove. Caroline Street absorbs much of it already which is combined with the traffic from two large schools, as does the surrounding residential streets. Traffic flow is already hazardous enough posing a serious risk to the students who attend the two schools situated in very close proximity to the proposed site.

The proposed child care centre would be better built away from such a high traffic area for the safety of its families, for the safety of the students and families who attend the two local schools, and for the sanity of the local residents who cannot compete with the traffic chaos that already exists on Caroline St.

DA-2018/138 - 104 Caroline St, Kingsgrove

According to the noise assessment report it is predicted that “the peak number of vehicle movements from parents dropping off / picking up children (i.e. not staff vehicles) occurring during the 7:00am to 9:00am morning peak period, to be 106 trips (53 in / 53 out). For a conservative assessment, it is assumed that all the trips associated with the childcare would occur in one hour”. What about the other 160 trips by families – 80 in and 80 out – and what about the staff trips? At what times do they assume they will happen? Our Lady of Fatima enrols approx. 440 students and St Ursula’s College approx. 1062 students. Peak traffic is between 8.15am until 9.15am and again between 2.50pm until 3.20pm. If there is a before or after school event these times are prolonged. I have not included the teachers or other staff who begin arriving at 7.30amand leave much later after the school hours. The proposed child care centre will add another 150 people using Caroline Street, twice per day.

On page 10 of the proposal’s ‘Statement of Environmental Effects’ it suggests that there will be a minimum of 21 staff working with the children during peak hours. On page 13 of this same document it states that the proposed “development provides for all of its parking demand including staff parking on-site”. This is obviously not the case as the basement plans only show parking for 11 staff. The train station entry is 500 metres away but the parking area for the station will be within 130 km of the centre. Shouldn’t there be a different ratio for parking provisions considering that the overflow for railway parking already overflows into Caroline Street?

The noise assessment report also states “It is anticipated that the use of the outdoor play areas will be limited to up to 2 hours (total) per day during the daytime operating hours of the childcare centre”. In my own experience as a child care worker, this cannot be enforced. It is an unrealistic and unreasonable expectation, particularly during the summer months. A significant number of children will likely attend the service from 7am until 6pm which means that the children would have to be kept indoors for 9 hours per day. The management levels suggest “Either the Group 3 or Group 4 children would utilise the ground floor play area located on the eastern side of the site, at any one time”. How does that affect the 2 hour outdoor play limit? How are the other management levels going to be enforced?

The traffic is already horrendous Monday-Friday during school drop off and pick up times with Our Lady of Fatima School and St Ursula's...let's not even talk about the Parking! This application is not for a small child care Centre, but a 133 place centre!
Caroline Street does not need more Cars and traffic!

There are already plenty of Child Care Centres in the Kingsgrove Area, all of which still have Vacancies! Why do we need another 133 place centre???

Having 3 schools on our street is enough don't you think? I'm constantly having issues with inconsiderate drivers blocking my driveway, preventing me from coming and going to pick up my kids. Their response is my child is coming i'll only be a minute. I have complained to police numerous times over the years but they can't be there all the time to police double parking and blocking residents driveways.

This proposal should be scrapped. It's dangerous for the kids and parents with prams. So many times I've seen drivers get impatient and usually do illegal turns to get around some of the traffic, even mounting the curb nearly knocking young kids.
The traffic is crazy during school hours yet also when the schools have functions, meetings etc during the evenings.

2 primary schools and 1 high school is enough for our street. Let common sense prevail please just imagine it was your street.

I'm surprised I didn't get a letter to notify me of the proposal, I heard about it through other residents.

parking and traffic flow of Caroline street during peak school drop off and pick up times is already extremely difficult. Please do not compound the problem by adding extra demand.

As a local parent (of primary school children attending Our Lady of Fatima) who has traversed the footpaths of Caroline Street Kingsgrove for over six years now, I am extremely concerned about the impact that this facility will have on this already stressed street. There are many dangerous incidents I have witnessed weekly of impatient drivers up & down this street around school drop off & pick up times. I empathise with the residents of this busy street as their driveways are regularly parked across by selfish & lazy parents who are too lazy to park a few streets away to collect their children. I implore you to consider not allowing this centre to go ahead. My paid job is a paramedic and I have seen enough unnecessary bloodshed, trauma and death over people generally being impatient, ignorant and selfish on the streets of Sydney. One way to curb these incidents is to limit increased traffic flow in suburban streets that are already barely coping. Thank you for listening.

Yeah this won’t work. Not at the end of the street anyway. It’s soo busy already. The traffic in the mornings is horrible. Adding a childcare centre into the mix will only make it 100X worse.

As a resident of Kingsgrove and a mother of 5 children, all of who have attended, and currently attend, the schools on Caroline St across from the proposed site of the 133 place child care Centre, it would be remiss of me not to OBJECT to this development based quite simply on the grounds of safety for all residents and all who traverse Caroline Street who already suffer the hazardous conditions of a very full and busy street daily.

SAFETY is the fundamental keyword here and the scope of its definition is extensive and all encompassing, given that there are two schools in the immediate vicinity of the proposed development, but also another school at the far end of Caroline St which means the street is a thoroughfare for a myriad of commuters already. To propose an increase to, rather than an alleviation of the traffic, is not only critically dangerous, but completely negligent in so far as Council competency and welfare of its residents.

Why why ..... .I have been living in Caroline St for 24 years. I had witnessed Caroline St change from a quiet st to a BUSY one with Heavy traffic.
Early morning at 7 o'clock. I can already see cars parked along the street for those who catch the train, school teachers and students. When they're in hurry, they just park and don't care whether they had blocked off half of my driveway, which cause me unable to get out to work.
Parents double park to drop of or pick up kids and watch them to cross the road. They have to watch for both side traffic . Isn't that safe???
When you come home and can't get in . Where you going to park???? That really pisses me off. Noise and rubbish dropped from people passing by.
The high school and primary school is enough on Caroline St.
Is it REALLY NECESSARY to have a childcare centre on Caroline St ?????

I object. Completely. We've only just gotten through the construction across the road at St Ursula's, then we have Our Lady of Fatima public school AND Church and then Kingsgrove Public right at the other end of the road. If there are to be any more cars on this street, there will be no more room for the residents. There are plenty of childcare centres in the area already! The construction of a whole new building on a private residential street is appalling. Honestly, go elsewhere.

We are about to endure another construction period. St Ursula’s is knocking down another house to extend their playground area.

Hi.

I live next door to the proposal and strongly object to this development.

Every morning and afternoon on weekdays parents park there vehicles in front on my driveway blocking me in.

There is way too much vehicle traffic during drop off and pick up of children.

This development would be a disaster to this street.

The proposed facility is unsuitable for this street and I object to the said proposal.
The stretch of Caroline Street between Shaw Street and Edward Street houses two well-patronized Catholic schools viz St Ursulas Girls High and Our Lady of Fatima Primary. These generate heavy traffic in the morning and afternoon.
In addition, this street is nowadays used as a bypass for Kingsgrove Road by motorists proceeding East.
In addition, the nearby Kingsgrove Railway Station, Catholic Church and Kingsgrove Public School also generate some traffic and parking demand in this part of Caroline Street.
It is not hard to see that this is quite a busy street at certain times of working days - and a large part of this traffic involves schoolchildren. Already, double parking by parents to drop off small children is rife - how safe is that?
It is already to difficult to exit from Shaw Street on to Kingsgrove Road. The proposed facility will only worsen the problem.
Therefore, any facility that generates additional traffic of small children is unsafe unsuitable for this location.

I am a resident of Berith Street. This development is almost directly behind me in Caroline Street. My children both attended Our Lady of Fatima and St Ursula's College. Over the years I have seen the traffic get heavier with the growth to both schools.

Regarding the Traffic Impact report, I'm not sure what day/time/conditions the survey was taken, but if it was taken during peak periods, it would have been noted that traffic at this time of the morning/afternoon is horrendous, with many parents already putting the general public at risk by ignoring traffic rules and parking (by blocking driveway and double parking). Try entering the roundabouts at these hours - as many parents don't want to wait, they block the roundabouts and traffic comes to a standstill. By allowing this development, more will be adding to the congestion. This is made worse during periods of wet weather, as people are even less likely to walk!

Outside of the peak periods, parking is also restricted, as it is taken up by teachers and students, and the very lucky residents who are able to park (keeping in mind that many residents have multiple cars). Parking is also taken up by commuters who are able to find parking, and those who are unable to, flow further down into Shaw Street, and then into Berith and Wolli Streets. If there is something happening at Our Lady of Fatima Church (mass or funeral) parking and traffic is a premium.

Obviously, these surveys were taken in the middle of the day - a quiet time (otherwise the report would have been completely different). The summary of the report would most definitely not have said "The proposed development is in an area where there are a small number of vacant spaces on Caroline Street. The nearby intersection performs well with sufficient spare capacity to accommodate additional traffic." - um, I think not - on a quiet weekend and school holidays perhaps, but not during the week!

I suggest these surveys be redone - during peak periods - then come back with that same summary!

Not to mention those who are too lazy to take their rubbish/empty coffee cups/empty snack bags home and just throw this rubbish in the street, gutter, residents' front gardens (yes, I have seen this happen)!

This application SHOULD NOT be allowed. There is no need for the pressure it will add to already limited resources.

I am a resident at Caroline Street within two minute walk from the proposed development site. My observation is that the proposed new child care centre, in addition to an existing one nearby at Shaw Street, will worsen the already congested local traffic and will create community clash. As such, I object to the development of the proposed child care centre at 104 Caroline Street, Kingsgrove, NSW 2208.

I think it would be crazy to add another school, cars and children to the area. The congestion is already at a all time high with traffic and no parking in the area. There is also the safety issue of trying to get preschool children to a centre in such a busy and congested area. Parents of preschool children would preschool children would have to park so far away just to drop their children off and with preschool children it would be extremely unsafe. I have a highschool student, a primary student (both in this street) and a preschool student but there is no way I would send him to the preschool as it would be easier to drop him at his Bexley preschool where I can drop him right out the front. I already know from experience in this street that would never be possible in this street. It would be quicker and safer for me to drive to Bexley and back then face the extra congestion and unsafe area this would create. I feel even more for the residents heaven forbid they ever have to leave their homes in an emergency with the extra congestion this would cause. Definitely not a wise addition to an already congested street where I see children placed in dangerous situations daily.

There are too many cars that go through this street, double parking occurs everyday and there is no way the street could handle a construction site. The street had a terrible fatality today and this is just another reason you should not add a childcare centre and endanger the kids https://www.theleader.com.au/story/5489050/fatal-pedestrian-accident-at-kingsgrove/

The traffic of Caroline St is already an issue, especially in the morning and afternoon where parents are either taking their child to school or picking them up. Some cars are blocking my driveway and the traffic jams makes it quite a problem. If they build a childcare it will make the situation worse. So the application to build a childcare should not be allowed due to this situation

Hi,

I also live in Caroline st and think that the house is one of the better looking houses in the street and improves the value of our properties.

I deliberately leave home early in the morning (5.30am) to avoid the traffic congestion in the area. Not just Caroline st but also Kingsgrove rd. If you try leaving at 8am it can add 30 minutes to the trip, just to get through Kingsgrove!

If I come home at 3pm I cannot pull into my driveway as someone is parked over it. I constantly toot at the pick up person to ask them to move, usually met with a death stare or a rude gesture for just trying to enter my own property.

I am not sure where the council expects the parents to park to drop off the children for the child care centre? If they park around the block, the footpaths are not in a very good condition for walking or pushing a pram on. We had an elderly neighbour who constantly fell in the area due to the uneven surfaces, the Councils resolution to the issue of uneven surfaces was to try and grind down the high spots. This has not fixed the issue as the footpath surfaces are uneven and have many trip points. I don't know how a toddler is expected to cope with the condition of the paths.

In addition to this, I am not sure who the target audience is for this day care centre? Most of the residence in the area are elderly and any families moving into the area already have school age children. There are already day care centres in the area, in addition there is a community hall and a Scout hall in the local area that have parking that would be great for day care. The scout hall used to have a day care centre operating from it, I am not sure if this is still in operation, but is a much more suitable alternative to putting a day care centre in Caroline st.

My own children walked to the public school at the other end of the street and usually had to wait for a bus driver to let them cross the road at the round about. The longest part of the walk was waiting to cross the road safely.

Our car parked on the road outside our house was hit and damaged by a drop off/ pick up, with no information as to who caused the damage. This happened about a year ago.

As others have commented, there are many functions at the school where residence get no notice and have trouble parking for the night. We have been in the area for 12 years and the parking situation is getting progressively worse.

Being a resident of the area and living across the road from a school, we expect a certain level of congestion and feel that an addition of a day care centre is unnecessary and will only make an extremely congested area even worse.

Caroline Street is already extremely busy, the proposed child care centre is a massive centre and will only make the parking worse, and increased congestion with an extra 133 children per day being dropped off in the mornings and picked up in the afternoons. Not to mention the extra staff needed for this childcare centre to run.

There are already enough childcare centres in the area, another one is not needed in this busy street already.

It will be extremely unsafe for residents and children already attending the schools on that street