104 Caroline Street, Kingsgrove NSW 2208

Demolition of existing structures and construction of a two(2) storey child care centre catering for 96 children operating Monday to Friday 7am to 6pm

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We found this application for you on the planning authority's website about 1 month ago. It was received by them 1 day earlier.

(Source: Bayside Council (Rockdale), reference DA-2019/339)

23 Comments

Have your say by adding your own comment.

  1. Yvonne Thompson commented

    I can only see the landscape plans on the website for now but that’s a lot of hazardous shade sail poles in the playground area. I suspect they will be an eyesore for neighbors, especially the ones on the upper floor area. The ground floor playground for the 0-2 year olds will have no sunshine. The 4-6 year old’s playground is on the upper floor area which poses a noise problem for residents considering that older children require a considerable amount of outdoor playtime. The increase of traffic for a 98 place child care centre with over 17 staff on a street with two schools and an after school care service across the road from the proposed site poses an increased safety risk for local school students. I’m concerned that the ramp, which I’m guessing leads to a basement car park, is located alongside another busy driveway for villas next door, which will be not only hazardous to drivers but also pedestrians using the footpath who will have to navigate crossing two busy driveways next to each other or wait in one of those driveways while cars enter and exit. The ramp is directly opposite the school entrance which is frequently used as a drop off area for students. It is also metres oppposite from the new school car park which has cars moving in and out of all day. I was under the impression after the last panel meeting for a similar proposed development that the site was considered not appropriate for a large child care centre. I hope the building plans etc will be made available on the website soon.

  2. Noah Faber commented

    Please no more traffic on Caroline street! I've already been hit on this road when I was crossing a crosswalk! The design looks nice, and its lovely that they want to make a childcare facility but this is not the place for it. The street is really suffering from congestion in mornings and afternoons.

  3. Daniel Hanna commented

    After reviewing the updated DA, other than a reduction in the number of children that the centre will accomodate for, there has been little done to address the original application's reasons for refusal. Reasons referenced below from Notice of Refusal dated 13/11/18:

    b. the form and bulk of the building remains an unreasonable size for the location, paying particular attention to the fact that this street is already overcrowded due to the schools that are in close proximity.

    c. the location of the outdoor play areas remains unchanged.

    e. building design and scale remains unreasonable and not in keep with the streetscape. The carriageway of the street is narrow, street parking is very limited due to schools and commuters, and there has been several incidents already with pedestrians being struck due to congestion at peak times.

    h. again the bulk and scale of this centre will have an adverse impact on the local community, mostly due to the noise, parking and traffic issues that will undoubtedly exacerbate the exiting congestion in the street.

    j, k & l. the intensity of the development has been demonstrated again to have a likely adverse impact on the streetscape and amenity of neighbouring properties. It is definitely not in the public interest and there is no demonstrated demand for a centre of this size in the area.

    I look forward to hearing from council once the application is processed.

  4. Tracey commented

    Others are completely correct
    Congestion horrible
    With daycare drop off adding to the flurry, this already dead-locked street will be inaccessible for residents (me).amd even more horrible and accident-prone than the current situation.
    Please don't allow this development!

  5. Yvonne Thompson commented

    Dropping a monstrosity like this in the middle of a residential and school zone just means prolonging the already impossible parking situation for residents who already try to work around the school parking hours. The centre only provides four spaces for the parents of 96 children and parking for eight of the over 16 staff. It hasn't taken into account that there will be deliveries, cleaners, maintenance workers, specialist support teachers for special needs children, and gardeners who will also increase demand for parking on Caroline St. I can't see how parents are going to be able to park near the centre to drop off their babies when I have teachers waiting for me to leave for my car spot as early as 7.45am every morning. Twice this week the schools had after hours functions on and there was no parking on the street or the surrounding streets until well after 6pm. The school replaced houses with a small carpark this year but from what I saw on the plans it is only a temporary car park.
    My husband is a shift worker and one of the playgrounds of the proposed centre is an upper floor balcony at the front of the building directly opposite the bedrooms of the neighbouring villas, parallel to two of the bedrooms in my house and several other houses in the street and directly opposite St Ursula's school. The noise from a balcony with 20 preschool aged children will not only disrupt neighbours but also HSC students during exams.The developer also didn't think about the noise from the street that will most certainly affect the poor babies whose cot room is located directly opposite a school bus stop that is frequently used by delivery trucks during the day.

  6. Marija commented

    Caroline st is over capacity for educational facilities for schools. This part of the street is home to over 1700 students and educators. The amount of congestion is unbearable for the residents. I am lucky that I live just outside the congested part and walk to the school, but even being a pedestrian in this area is complex and hazardous. The proposed crossings in the area are yet to be built 10 months since Bayside Council approved? Not sure what's going on there, not this re-application for a large scale childcare Centre. This cannot be approved. People before profit.

  7. Nicky commented

    This street is already highly congested in mornings and afternoons with traffic sitting at gridlock every day. These plans would only exacerbate this issue and create additional congestion but more importantly greater risk to the safety of children and pedestrians. There is no parking in this street already, and this proposed facility doesn’t even cater for parking for educational staff, let alone additional people working on site. My biggest concern is for the safety of children of the nearby schools and the lack of Carr taken by drivers. Happy for a childcare centre in the suburb but this is the wrong location.

  8. Simon commented

    I am writing here to object the proposal of 2 storey childcare centre at 104 Caroline Street. Here're my reasons below:

    1. There are already illegal parking in my driveway currently with parents dropping and waiting for school kids from the school opposite my place. With a capacity of 96 kids, this will definitely worst the situation and more parents will illegally parked in my driveway.

    2. Traffic has been very bad during weekdays due to school drop off or pickup, to add extra childcare centre here, again will worst the situation very very badly.

    3. Being in a low density quiet living suburb, the noise level of a 96 kids childcare centre will certainly make this worst. I have an elderly parent living here and always need to have a nap everyday, the noise will definitely impact her health which is no good.

    4. While this proposal will dig an underground parking, this will have a big impact on our structure next door too, is someone guarantee to take responsibility if damage anything during construction period?

    I hereby strongly against this proposal and please consider all the negative impact going to do to our nice peaceful neighbourhood. Hope the council can reject this application.

  9. Jasmine commented

    Not sure why this has been resubmitted again given there were so many opposed to the construction of this property.

    Caroline St on a regular working/school day is filled with student, teachers, commuters who park along the street and adjacent streets surrounding Caroline St. Everyday, I struggle with parents who double park outside my drive way, vision is obstructed as I reverse out of my driveway as two cars park in a one car spot. '

    I struggle to understand how the traffic management will be executed and monitored.

    There is already a two childcare centres in the area that are walking distance from this location.

    There will be car and noise pollution which will devalue my property. I have been here for 30 years and only recently Caroline St has become ever more congested with more cars, pedestrians, and buses driving through what was a quiet suburban street. Further to this, there is Kingsgrove Public School on to other side of the street which has the same traffic using the bottom of Caroline St as a thoroughfare to get to Bexley Nth, M5 and Kingsgrove Rd.

    I really cannot comprehend how this centre will provide any benefit the community especially the residents who have to experience it on a daily. I would suggest the council rep reviewing get themselves acquainted with the street to be understand the issues I and every other submission has expressed.

    We do not want this double storey Childcare Centre on Caroline St.

  10. MDB commented

    There were very clear reasons why this was rejected first time around - trying again will not change anything, as nothing has improved!

    Congestion remains as it was. Parking remains as it was. Teachers/students/commuters - all needing to travel and park. Wet weather and it becomes worse.

    I also note that peak times were noted as 8-9am and 5-6pm. You haven't factored in the 2-30-4pm after school pick up where parents/grandparents/guardians all vying for peak parking end up parking across driveways. Adding a further childcare centre in an already crowded area will only make this situation worse. Perhaps the surveyors should spend an entire weekday (7am - 7pm), during school period at both ends of the street to see exactly what it is like - not just certain parts of the day which are convenient to them. As has been previously mentioned, perhaps it would be a good idea for the Council representatives to attend the area for an entire weekday during the school term to also see what it is like.

    Also, on watching the news just this morning, there was a report of a childcare centre tragedy in Melbourne where a child was hit by a car in this very same situation - it's just asking for trouble. Small children can very easily run off, and many parents nowadays let them just be - without keeping a firm hold.

    This application MUST NOT be allowed to go ahead.

  11. Marina Peronace commented

    Its disappointing to see this issue is being addressed again.

    I am a local resident, I work close by and have both my children currently attend OLF Kingsgrove, I feel this will have catastrophic affects on our local community, especially Caroline St. If you complete a traffic report on Caroline st from 3:00-4:00 you'll realize that there is so much congestion on Caroline St (because of the three major Educational Institutions) that drivers have shown serious aggression on a regular basis attempting to get through the round about on both end of Caroline St. This not only scares the children but they are exposed to behaviors and certain vocabulary which is very concerning and confronting.

    Other concerns include:
    - Out of character / consistency with zone objectives
    The site is located within the R2 Low Density Residential zone which seeks to ensure the single dwelling character, landscape character, neighbourhood character and streetscapes of the zone are maintained over time and not diminished by the cumulative impact of the existing education establishments, multi-unit development, etc.
    Therefore, the proposal by way of its scale, bulk and setbacks is inconsistent with the surrounding single dwelling character and low density residential environment.

    - Not Compliant with Councils Development Control plan
    The front setbacks and basement setbacks do not comply with Councils Development Control Plan 2019 resulting in the proposed building having an unacceptable impact on the streetscape by way of building bulk and inadequate landscaping.
    The child care centre is out of character and out of place in this residential area.

    - Privacy/overlooking
    The first floor balconies and rooms impact on the privacy of adjoining properties.

    - Overdevelopment
    A child care centre for 96 children is considered an over development. A smaller scale centre is more appropriate;
    There is a cumulative impact of development in the area including townhouse development and most importantly 3 larger educational establishments, two of which is continuing to grow.

    - Noise
    Ongoing construction noise;
    Traffic noise;
    Noise during use particularly of outdoor play areas.
    The acoustic report submitted with the DA requires the construction of a 2.7m high fence partially along the rear boundary and western side boundary. The acoustic report suggests that this could incorporate a cantilevered section. Please submit full elevations and sections of this fence.
    The acoustic report I believe also does not offer information regarding the use of the first floor play areas, is there a Plan of Management with respect to the breakdown of the proposed hours of outdoor play, along with the specific age groups and numbers.

    - Safety
    There is cause for concern for the safety of the children attending the 3 educational establishments during construction. Closures of pathways, dangers during demolition, tip/skip bin removal and delivery, ongoing construction vehicles coming and going, no set construction time is provided, etc. This area has a high number of children who walk to school independently and may not understand the cause for concern.

    - Reduction of Real Estate Value
    The houses within the local community will reduce in value as there is so much traffic and noise as well as many other issues to be taken into consideration.

    - Traffic and Parking
    The proposal would result in unacceptable impact on the surrounding road network as a result of the scale of the development and the lack of onsite car parking. The number of car parking spaces provided on site does not meet the number required by Councils Development Control Plan 2019 for a 96 place child care centre.
    As a parent at OLF, the reason why 'Car pick up' is currently causing so much traffic concerns is due to the lack of parking in the area. This institute will only make this situation worse and create more chaos.

    Over all- the proposal as such is not in the public interest. Its completely unnecessary and will negatively impact our local community in many ways.

  12. Vesna Zuro commented

    This development proposal should not be approved for a variety of reasons: Firstly it does not address the existing extreme congestion already present in Caroline St owing to the 2 schools. Secondly, it does not address the daily hazards that residents, pedestrians and drivers currently experience particularly the increasing risk of unsafe conditions for pedestrians and residents. Thirdly it is aesthetically not in keeping with the predominantly residential nature of the street as the proposed construction is large and inappropriate. I would suggest that Councillors do a site visit during the morning and afternoon (and increasing in the evenings owing to school activities) to understand why we the residents are so outraged that this proposal is being re-considered. Reject the proposal.

  13. Marin commented

    This proposal should be rejected on the basis that there is simply insufficient and inadequate information on a variety of levels, however focusing specifically on the construction activities, the following points should be noted:

    1. The Demolition Work Plan does not take into account all risks relevant to work health and safety. Has a structural engineering assessment been undertaken on the impact to adjacent/adjoining properties? If so, why hasn’t it been made available for review?

    2. Have Adjacent/Adjoining owners been advised that shoring may need to be installed beneath their properties and have residents given permission?

    3. The details of the mechanical plant to be used have not been provided, thus, how can a reasonable assessment be made of the noise impact? The hazardous noise and vibration resulting from the demolition, excavation and construction will adversely effect the surrounding structures (in particular the schools) for a considerable period of time not to mention construction activities which are high risk to residents and users of the Street

    4. There is no mention of the potential exposure to the hazardous chemical crystalline silica found during demolition, excavation and construction. How is this risk proposed to be managed? There are 1110 school students only across the road of the proposed site not to mention the nearby adjacent/adjoining residents, many of whom are elderly and incapacitated.

    Reject the proposal!

  14. Lynda Okwechime commented

    Their is a lot of congestion already on Caroline st, placing a child care centre on that street will make parents mornings and afternoon run a nightmare. Is already bad as it is this days pls we need your help to stop this construction from taking place. Our children safety is paramount. I know some of you have kids in the area and is not going to be safe for our high schoolers and the young ones allowed to go home on their own. I cannot imagine another service on the street that is already congested with 3 schools and no on site parking. It will be a terrible thing if another centre is being placed there.
    Think of a toddler escaping from the centre and run to a very busy road like Caroline street, it will be very deadly. Please think wisely and stop the construction from taking place.

  15. Carmen Chan commented

    I am against the proposal of building this childcare centre on Caroline street. With the two existing schools, it is impossible to find parking on Caroline street on weekdays. Also the extreme traffic congestion during school pick up and drop off time. A car crashed into the fence of Number 35 Caroline street a few months ago. It can not accommodate another childcare centre built in this already congested zone. We don’t want to put the the locals residents and the kids safety at risk.
    Please reject the proposal!

  16. Gloria commented

    This is ridiculous! Caroline Street already very busy with the bad traffic during morning and afternoon school time! Having a Childcare center there will just makes things even worst!
    Think about the local! Please give them a bit of peace!

  17. Anna Lee-Badr commented

    For some reason I cannot access any of the submitted documents, floorplans or drawings on the council website so I cannot comment on anything specific but my main points of refusal remain the same as last year.

    I refer to DA-2019/339 and I would like to OBJECT to the proposed development of a 96 place, 2 storey child care centre at 104 Caroline St, Kingsgrove based on the following grounds:

    1) The proposed development by way of the building size, bulk and form would be entirely out of character of the residential, predominantly single dwelling streetscape of the eastern side of Caroline St between Shaw St and Edward St.
    The western side of Caroline St is primarily occupied by Our Lady of Fatima Catholic Primary School and St Ursula's College. In the last 12 months we have seen the construction of a staff carpark and the demolition of two more dwellings between the primary school and girls high school. These 2 blocks are now fenced off, vacant and grassed. Pending the aquisition of 2 neighbouring properties, these 4 properties will potentially merge as some form of expansion between the two schools. We do not need to add to the congestion and overcrowding of this particular section of Caroline Street by constructing a building of the proposed scale and capacity.

    2) There is no demonstrated demand for a child care centre of this capacity and scale in the area of Kingsgrove.
    As of Wednesday 16th October, a child care vacancy search by postcode revealed 5 out of 7 comparable centres advertised vacant positions waiting to be filled. Additionally, another 2 storey child care centre with basement parking had already been approved approximately 350m away on Staples Street (DA-2017/100 construction pending). Kingsgrove is not a densely populated area and a child care centre of this design and bulk is neither needed nor wanted in an already saturated market.
    As a mother with a child enrolled in a child care facility, I cannot fathom how the early learning needs of young children can be met in a place where they are literally piled on top of each other. Young children need space to run, play, explore and express themselves. Clearly the objective of this development is to maximise financial gain by squeezing in as many children as they possibly can. The commercial interest of the project would not serve the needs of the community and should not be approved.

    3) The scope of the development would adversely impact neighbouring properties and the general school community by way of compounding traffic issues, parking difficulties in an already congested street and mostly by the noise of young children playing outside.
    The close proximity of the two schools and proposed location of the child care centre would mean local residents are surrounded by the noise of children playing outside multiple times throughout the day. The adjoining villas and dwellings on either side and behind the centre would be impacted the most by high pitched squeals and screams from young children playing outdoors. On a clear day, sound can be carried a long way especially from the elevated outdoor play areas. This would impact the high school students directly across the road trying to concentrate on their lessons and studies. Conversely, over 1000 girls outside during recess and lunch would also make a lot of noise for babies trying to nap throughout the day.

    Street parking is limited on both sides of the street even with the opening of the new St. Ursula's staff carpark. It is a constant battle for parking spots between commuters wanting to park near the train station, tradespersons with the increasing construction and expansion between the two schools, teaching staff and visitors of both schools, delivery vehicles, carers of elderly residents on Caroline St, parents dropping off or picking kids up from school and the many residents who have multiple cars in one household.The basement carpark does not provide safe egress for pedestrians AND two-way vehicle access. The turning bay is inadequate for a large vehicle to perform a U-turn safely and the build up of traffic is inevitable. The carriageway of the northern section of Caroline St is further narrowed by multiple school bus routes passing through. There just isn't a safe place to pull over and stop your car if the basement carpark is full. Drivers will park in residents driveways or partially block driveways because they'll "only be a minute". It happens all the time already.

    My paramount concern is the safety the children who walk to either of the two schools with or without an adult. The traffic congestion can be very frustrating for drivers trying to get past the school traffic and drop off/pick up areas. I've seen cars overtake on the wrong side of the road at high speed. A few months ago, a car spun out of control into the front fence of a house at the Caroline/ Edward St round-a-bout because another car did not give way. Thankfully nobody was hurt but if it had happened 10 minutes earlier the consequences would have been dire.

    A child care centre of this design and scale is just too big and out of character for this location. It will compound existing traffic, parking and noise issues and it is neither needed nor wanted in our local community. I urge the Bayside Planning panel to REJECT this development application.

  18. Ivana Zrnic commented

    I strongly object to the proposed development due to the following reasons:
    1. Caroline St is a very busy street with an ever expanding high school and primary school directly across from the proposed development. Further up the street is another large public school. The traffic in the street is horrendous with a great deal of congestion and also danger posed several times a day due to the large number of vehicles and people travelling up and down the street.
    2. The proposed development is right in the middle of residential dwellings and this proposed development with greatly disrupt the ascetic of street and surrounding homes. It would be highly intrusive to the neighbours visually and due to noise. Particularly a playground on a rooftop which is a traditional structure for CBD day care centres.
    3. The safety of the residents and children of the schools. I have lived in the street my entire life and in the late 90's a young girl was killed due to the congestion of cars and people in the street. I would hate for this to ever occur again as it was a very traumatic event for the residents and community as a whole.
    4. The proposed development of the driveway runs along with the driveway for villas - the traffic up and down these driveways will be very dangerous and also seriously obstruct vision and the safety of residents and visitors to the street alike.
    5. Parking in the street is essentially non existent. Adding more parking issues along with traffic issues would be seriously detrimental to the appeal of the street and the properties in the street and their value.
    6. The noise already in the street is quite severe and distracting and I would not suggest that it would be prudent to add more noise to the street but also it would be difficult for children in a day care centre to sleep due to the constant noise in the street as it is.
    7. The schools across the road from the proposed development are constantly expanding and developing and there is major construction going on regularly which causes even more concerns for safety and traffic and parking congestion.
    8. multiple bus routes up and down the street are also a major reason for the traffic and also cause great concerns for the safety of the current students and residents who use the street each day.
    9. My greatest concern is the safety the children who walk to either of the two schools with or without an adult. The traffic congestion can be very frustrating for drivers trying to get past the school traffic and drop off/pick up areas.cars overtake on the wrong side of the road at high speed. A few months ago, a car spun out of control into the front fence of a house at the Caroline/ Edward St round-a-bout because another car did not give way. Thankfully nobody was hurt but if it had happened 10 minutes earlier the consequences would have been dire.
    10. A child care centre of this design and scale is just too big and out of character for this location. It will compound existing traffic, parking and noise issues and it is neither needed nor wanted in our local community. I urge the Bayside Planning panel to REJECT this development application

  19. Charlotte commented

    OBJECTION AGAIN........
    As we all know that traffic in Caroline St is a big headache.If we can't solve the problem, WHY we let it get worse? A child car centre in Caroline St is not necessary.
    I already have trouble with people that park their car outside the white line and block nearly half of my driveway. What can I do ? During the peak hour, it took 30 minutes wait from the Edward St /Caroline st round- a-bout to get down to my home which close to Shaw st round- a-bout. And if you want to exit from Shaw st to Kingsgrove road, 20 minutes at least.
    Beside SAFTY FIRST. For everyone .Chaos traffic can be solve but not INCREASE.
    PLEASE REJECT.

  20. Fabian commented

    My wife and I have lived in Caroline St since 1967 and although there were schools when we arrived, the present day congestion has made it extremely difficult (and dangerous) for us to get in and out of our house especially during school hours (which appear to be getting longer). We object to this proposal as the traffic will be unbearable and never ending given the childcare centre has longer hours than the schools.

  21. Diana Jazic commented

    I have lived in Caroline Street (across the road from the Catholic primary school) for 50 years and I am shocked and dismayed that yet again, this development proposal is being considered. In the block between Shaw and Edward Streets there is a primary school and a high school. The primary school offers no staff parking and the high school only recently provided very limited parking for their staff. There are over 1,500 attending both schools. Since construction of the M5 Caroline Street is also used as a detour avoiding Kingsgrove Road and during 2018 speed humps were constructed to reduce the speed of vehicles. The behaviour of drivers particularly in the morning and afternoon creates a difficult and dangerous situation for children and local residents. Resident driveways are continually blocked and far too often the traffic controller during the morning and afternoon school periods struggles to safely control and direct the flow of vehicles. Exiting and entering our driveway has become increasingly difficult and there have been far too many accidents in the street where vehicles have crossed the footpath, damaging private property (fences) - and miraculously no one was injured or killed. Construction of child care centre in this street will significantly increase the risk to health and safety of the community in particular children. This proposal cannot and should not be considered for approval under any circumstances. Bayside Planning Committee - please REJECT this proposal!

  22. Branko Jazic commented

    Under NO circumstances should this development proposal be approved. The amount of traffic flow, lack of adequate parking and overdevelopment of existing schools has created a dangerous and difficult situation for local residents, community and most importantly the children that attend the two schools located in this block between Shaw Street and Edward Street. it is already such a difficult situation and the construction of a child care facility for 96 children will significantly increase the risks already present.
    This proposal should be rejected.

  23. Sankaran N Murthy commented

    Re: Application no. DA-2019/339Property Address: 104 Caroline Street, KingsgroveProperty Title: Lot A DP 361159 & Lot B DP 361159

    In my opinion, this application should be rejected. There are two reasons for my objection.
    (1) There is no safe and convenient place to set down and pick-up the child-care children.There are already two (Catholic) schools in this part of the said street. Their staff and occasionally students regularly use the entire street for parking during school days. They have a legal right to do so. The schools do not provide enough off-street parking. If the street is full of parked cars, how will the child-care children access the child-care centre?- Double park to set down and pick-up? Dangerous and illegal.- Lots of cars queue up in the street while each car, one by one, enter the child-care centre, set down/pick up their children, and leave? This will cause extreme congestion and possibly illegal driving behaviour. This bedlam can already be seen in front of Our Lady of Fatima (OLF) School and St Ursula's School at opening and closing times. The last thing this street needs is more congestion in the morning and afternoon.- Reserve street frontage for the child-care centre? Well, OLF and St Ursula's have much wider street frontage and still they cannot avoid queuing & congestion. How will this smaller property manage it? If more space is taken up from the street, it will exacerbate an already impossible parking situation.
    (2) Caroline Street is now unofficially the bypass road for the extremely busy and congested Kingsgrove Road - but the street itself was designed as a residential street. No traffic management methods suitable for a busy street are in place - not even considering the danger posed to schoolchildren. The extra disorganized traffic generated by the child-care centre is dangerous not only for the child-care children but also the existing school children of the Catholic schools.
    In short, this street is just not suitable for this new development while existing residents continue to live there and the existing schools continue to operate.

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